.jpg)
gtmPRO
Visit gtmPRO to subscribe and get free access to our frameworks and guides!
Practical Go-to-Market guidance specifically for B2B software and service companies between $5MM-$50MM in revenue.
gtmPRO
#39: Emma Stratton on Clear Messaging and Value-Driven Communication
Mastering B2B messaging with clarity and precision has never been so easy. Join us as special guest -Emma Stratton unveils her journey from journalism and travel writing to becoming a renowned consultant in B2B tech messaging. Ever wondered how to humanize complex B2B products? Find out how shifting from feature-heavy descriptions to value-driven messaging can make all the difference.
Delve into techniques like:
-The "so what" game and creative exercises designed to help even the most technically-minded founders communicate their products effectively
-Leveraging B2C strategies for B2B success, emphasizing on understanding and mirroring customer language and emotions.
- Why prioritizing key benefits that solve real problems can turn a product pitch from mundane to magnetic.
-Focusing on a single, potent value proposition. Explore the challenges and triumphs of narrowing down multiple selling points to one irresistible message.
Through clear, honest communication, build the trust and confidence needed to make your B2B marketing truly stand out.
Emma's LinkedIn
Pre-order Emma's Book
You can have personality, you can have some humor.
Tiana:You can connect.
Emma:But then there were bad FAQs. Oh my God. I took a screenshot of one. It was this whole huge page. It was like, say, the software is called Platform X and it was like this huge, overwrought website. Then at the bottom it had FAQ and the first one was what is Platform X?
Andy:You have failed.
Emma:Your whole website has failed, oh my gosh, but that's just like. I don't even know why that happened. But you know, be smart about your faq. Like, ask the real questions that people are actually asking and don't like you know how some people use it for, like, fishing for compliments. Like, is this an award winning brand? Why, yes, we have won 10 awards.
Gary:Yeah, it reminds me of the other one that I love all the time. Which package should I buy? It presumes like oh, I'm in, I'm sold, I just don't know which one to buy.
Emma:How much should I throw at you? Yeah, oh gosh, too much fun, we knew.
Gary:B2B could. How much should I throw at you? Yeah, oh gosh, too much fun. We knew B2B could be so much fun.
Tiana:It's a lot of fun if we just let it.
Gary:Welcome to the GTM Pro Podcast, your essential audio resource for mastering go-to-market discussions in the boardroom. Your essential audio resource for mastering go-to-market discussions in the boardroom. Here we share insights for revenue leaders at B2B software and services companies, especially those with less than $50 million in revenue. Why? Because the challenges faced by companies of this size are unique. They are too big to be small and too small to be big. This dynamic pushes revenue leaders into executive leadership without a lot of help or support. We are here to provide that support. Your journey to boardroom excellence starts now, so let's get started.
Emma:Let's do it.
Gary:Here's the magic words. Okay. Well, we are really excited here on the GTM Pro Podcast to have Emma Stratton with us and in this content series in August, a big piece of what we are trying to convey and everyone would agree is that clarity is king. We hear that a lot is clarity over cleverness, right, but nobody really talks about how to get there, and so that's what we're looking forward to unpack with Emma, who spent some time there. So, emma, without further ado, would you mind providing an introduction? Just would, really. I mean, you've spent. There's a lot of people out there today that are exploring this idea of being a consultant advisor what have you? But you've been doing this for a while, which I think is really unique, and I'd love we'd love to hear about that journey of how you got there, cause I think there's some really interesting experiences in there. That puts you in a really unique position as it relates to where you are today with B2B.
Emma:Yeah, thank you, gary. So it's true, there are so many people who are interested in messaging or, you know, becoming a consultant. But when I first had the idea of starting a consultancy and just doing messaging for B2B tech companies, everyone laughed at like. Everyone laughed at me and was like that's a terrible idea.
Tiana:That's not going to work.
Emma:I know, which is wonderful, right, you know you're onto something good when everyone says it's a bad idea. But just to kind of go back a few years before that, you know I'm a creative person. I was born to be a writer and I spent many years after college trying to figure out what's the home for these skills, like how do I make money while writing words. And I tried journalism. I tried journalism, travel writing, I did publishing magazines. Nothing felt right until I fell into marketing, quite by accident. And I fell into consumer marketing.
Emma:I was living in the UK working on consumer packaged goods, packaging copy, brand campaigns, brand personalities, and it was the first time I was like wow, this is so fun. I can use words to make people feel things about products, like I can give these products personalities, I can make them talk, like their customers talk. I really enjoyed that work and so, as I got into marketing, I took a new job. Randomly, I was moving back to the States and I wanted a job with a short commute, and so the closest agency to my house was a b2b marketing agency. So I just thought I'll just do that, because I'm sure it's basically the same thing like b2b, b2c. And I had a rude awakening when my my first client was a enterprise data management software company oh boy oh my god, what a doozy.
Emma:I remember I read the messaging for the first time. I'd never read anything like it. I was like I've made a huge mistake. What am I doing? I'm too dumb to write this way. I was like, wow, I can't believe buyers enjoy reading this. Like, who are these customers that like this stuff? Well, of course I met the CMO. He's like messaging is our biggest problem. Our salespeople don't even know what our product is you're like I think I know why I was like, ah, okay, my first instinct.
Emma:So what was instinctual to me, which is, well, where's your customer? Why aren't you talking to them? Why is this so complicated? I started using a lot of the things that I had done in consumer and applied it to this company once I understood the technology and everything and they saw such big results. And then I started looking around. I'm like wait, everyone in the industry is struggling with the same thing. Like very few companies are doing this well, and so it was.
Emma:I saw this problem and I was able to solve it really easily, like I could just sort this out for people in like five minutes. So I thought I just want to do this because I was really passionate about the problem. So again, everyone was like no, you can't do that, they want brand or they won't pay for that, et cetera. So I spent several years, you know, really kind of talking about the problem, writing about it, talking about the problem, writing about it. But I started working with, you know, founders, smaller startups, you know earlier series A, you know, and now I've run the gamut all the way to kind of the famous household names, kind of all, all sizes, all industries, and it's amazing how you see patterns and you see shared struggles that really cross technology. We think we're special that we have these problems, but I can say so many companies struggle with these things because it is not easy, and so that's kind of where Punchy is today.
Emma:Now I teach marketers how to do it and I have a book coming out, but I just was really obsessed with this problem. How can I help people solve this problem? I have a book coming out, but I'm just was really obsessed with this problem. How can I help people solve this problem of I have a complex technology. I need to sell it to humans. Please help.
Gary:Yeah, well, you said something in there that sparked interest here. So, first of all, I think that that that B2C back, or like the serendipity of you finding an agency to happen to be close and doing not just b2b but really complicated b2b right, that that was really a blessing, that you came in without any preconceived notions about what it means to be a b2b marketer, right, you're like, well, this is just marketing, it's talking to customers. I think, like I'm sure you look back at that and say, boy, that was actually really great that I didn't have any of that coming in. But what were some of the tools that you learned in B2C that you brought over in B2B that helped you parse through the need to communicate with some complex subject matter, but in a way that was human?
Emma:Yeah, absolutely. So I would say there are two that come to mind. The first is more in depth. So when I was writing for consumer goods, a lot of times I was helping to create a personality for a brand that was vibing with the type of consumer we were hoping to connect with. So it was like how can a human anthropomorphize like this toilet paper, toothpaste, right, and so that would force me to get in the head of my customer, think how do they talk, what do they care about, what's their vibe? Now, how can I reflect that vibe, that language, in this small space of copy? And that is the same thing that you need to do when it comes to messaging, and any kind of content in B2B is the same thing that you need to do when it comes to messaging and any kind of content in B2B. Sure, you've got more than three seconds, you're not just trying to sell a pack of gum. But if you can think about that one human that's actually going to be reading what you're writing and think about how do they talk about their problems, how do they actually talk about them, how do they really feel about them, what matters to them, and then really reflect that Kind of let that guide your creation of messaging and content and almost mirror themselves so that when they read the message or the content they're like, oh my God, that happened to me yesterday, that problem, like oh yeah, wait, do you have an answer for me? So that reflection of the audience in the words is something that I brought over.
Emma:What struck me about that first data management messaging? I was like I can't even picture the buyer, like who are you talking to? Right, because it was so inward. I pictured a faceless man in a suit, like no face, and a suit. That's who I pictured they were talking to, which is not a person. So that is one thing that I brought. And then the other is more technical, where it's just using the shortest, simplest word, only using the big word if a short one won't do. So. When I was doing packaging copy, I had to kind of really do a zinger in like five words or I only had. I had real space constraints.
Emma:So, every single word had to be doing something. No freeloaders, every word had to be bringing something to the party. And I think in B2B messaging we have tons of words that are not doing anything. They're just, you know, flubbing up the sentences, making them long and hard to understand. So this idea of every word must be saying something, using the shortest, easiest to understand word you know, unless a bigger one needs to be used, and really using that to help simplify complex information is the other thing that I brought over pretty quickly from B2C.
Gary:Yeah, oh, sorry to interrupt that.
Tiana:I actually was thinking so when you pictured that faceless man with a suit. How do you come from that perspective to actually understand who that man was? How did you put a face on that man is what I would like to ask, because I feel like so many marketers are so confused about, like they know they're supposed they know, they're supposed to know who they're selling to, but it's so hard to actually get to know that person, and sometimes the ICP in this type of companies, especially lower middle market companies, are not very clearly defined. They think they are, but not really so. When marketers try to talk to these people, they don't really know where to start, how, how to start thinking about them and, like how, how to put that face on that man.
Gary:So, yes, and I would say, piggybacking on that. That's actually exactly where I was going to go, which is, and the words that that person uses Cause a lot of times we come in with our own preconceived notions. It runs through a filter and you know outcomes something different, Like they didn't actually say that. I mean, they kind of said the same thing, but you're using different words now. So that'd be great too.
Emma:Yeah. So I think the ICP is tough, especially when we think about small. You know, earlier stage companies are ones who don't have a really well-defined ICP. I'll talk about that in a sec. But I think an issue that we have in B2B marketing is we abstract everything.
Emma:So, we have our persona profiles, our ICP profiles, we have all these charts. Oh, our buyer, it's 45 to 48. And they have this job, role and this, and we abstract these people. We're trying to reach, when really you want to think about an actual human that represents someone who might buy your software. And so, if you know a couple of them, talk to them and get to know them and interview them. So, if you have maybe some happy users happy customers that you're like, I'd love to have more of them some happy users, happy customers that you're like, I'd love to have more of them Get to know them as a marketer, talk to them so that they're a real person, and ask them.
Emma:I've got some questions that I love to ask, but you know, ask them to describe, you know what was going on that made you look for a solution like ours, what are the challenges you're up against, how do they make you feel? You know, how do you wish things would change, how did your life change using our product, et cetera. And I record these. You know these interviews and you record them and you transcribe them and you will be amazed at how beautifully your customer will likely explain all these things that you're trying to write about and use these words and they will just do it effortlessly because they're not burdened by knowing everything like you are. And so getting it just even one or two conversations with a customer or an ideal prospect, someone who represents someone who would make a good customer, and just get to know them, have like a real, just a relaxed chat, not like a formal, uptight one, just like what's hard about your job, right, like how did we help? And just dig into it and have a conversation, record it and look at that language.
Emma:One thing I found when I am doing messaging for a company, I will interview maybe eight to 10 customers and it's really interesting when you start seeing customers are describing problems in the same language, they're using the same words and that can give you really good confidence, like this is probably how we want to phrase this particular challenge or benefit, because I'm seeing lots of customers doing it. I think it's very hard to sit down, think of this abstracted, faceless man in a suit or a list of attributes in an ICP profile and try to write something that connects with them, because that's not a human. It's much easier to think do you know someone? Do you know a customer. Do you know someone who represents that ICP and can you write for them? Think about what they would like, how they might say it, and that will make the writing process less painful for you and more effective. As an end result of what?
Emma:you come up with.
Gary:Yeah, I love that, especially the abstraction piece. Right, it's like we have to have a model for everything.
Andy:Yes, b2b, and we're guilty of it. We all do it we all do it.
Emma:You know there's a place like it is helpful, but I think we can go too far with the abstraction and the data driven aspects of things in B2B and we forget the basics like connecting and using our creativity and going on instinct right.
Gary:Yeah, and you and Andy jump in here at any moment. But it made me think too, as luck would have it, we're actually going to have next week Gia from Forget the Funnel.
Gary:Oh great, yeah, so obviously the customer research whisperer, she and Claire, so they're going to give us that exact insight and it sounds like you're using a very similar kind of heuristic to get at that, and I think that to me, that's one of the observations outside, looking in, of the value that you can bring as a third party is that even if you're trying to train an individual marketer on how to do that, sometimes they're just too close to the product and the problem and all the vernacular and the industry speak to be able to just take a step back.
Gary:And going back to your initial B2C to B2B experience, you didn't have any of that baggage and so you walk in and you're like I'm just going to be a human asking some questions about how you think about this, and then you hear them as they say those words, versus any kind of filter that you have. I would think that that's a real advantage. But have you seen, are there methods that you've been able to put in place to help people who are in that role, who do have, you know, that baggage, so to speak, or the benefit of it, that they can still hear those things from the customer?
Emma:Yeah, it's interesting the baggage. I mean you can be very deep and have so much information that it can be very hard to see the wood from the trees. So that is really a tough one and sometimes you do just need that fresh perspective. But I do have some exercises that can kind of help you go from that inside out point of view that people often do, like oh, the features, the capabilities and take a more outside inin approach. I call it the VBF rule and it's kind of central to my book about messaging. But it's this idea of leading with the value, following with the benefit and the feature coming last and using that order in messaging.
Emma:So typically, technical founders will start at the feature start and end. They're just like it's got AI power detection Done, you know, and it's like okay, we need a little bit more than that, right? So what I push folks like that to do is play the so what game? So start with your feature wherever you're at and play that so what game? So I say imagine a bored teenager sitting in front of you just being like so what? And so you say, oh, because you know it helps you do this. And they're like well, so what? And then you go a step further. So you play this, so what game? And you keep going until you hit a wall, usually around increased revenue. But it's a great way to kind of push you out of the features.
Emma:And when you do it you'll see that your brainstorm will often naturally go from feature into benefits and then finally into value propositions. That's kind of how our mind goes when we start at the feature and try and expand like all the reasons why it's great. So I have people do that brainstorm start with a feature, so what, so what? Keep pushing out and look at your benefits and value propositions and then I say you know you've got a bunch of value propositions and benefits there which do you think of all of those really are, will be most meaningful to your customer, based on their most meaningful problem that they want to solve and what you know about them.
Emma:And that forces them to not say everything but really think okay, if we're basing it on this key customer problem we know we solve really well, then it's gonna be this benefit or this value. And then I say, take that and then pull it into a message where the headline speaks to that value point and then the body speaks to the benefit which is really bringing to life, how you bring that value to life. And then you can kind of mention the featurey stuff at the very end. So you're drawing people in and then drawing them into the feature, and so in many ways it's just taking the opposite approach than you naturally would, as like a technically minded person, kind of starting with the features. So it's just a really good way to force you outward in and really thinking what does my customer care about, based on the problems that they're really motivated to solve.
Gary:Yeah, yeah, I love that being more methodical about that VBF.
Andy:It's so funny. I had a really similar question and you kind of answered it around like what if they? They don't have creative talent, like we know? I hate to put it that way, but you probably run into like, especially around product marketing. It's pretty mechanical and like you can't teach creativity per se, but it sounds like you do have some formulas for teasing out creativity out of a process and allowing them to at least have a creative or oriented to believe that that's a component of that too. But how would you turn a really not creative person more creative?
Gary:around Asking for a friend right.
Andy:Asking for a friend.
Tiana:Ouch.
Emma:So funny, yeah. So I love that question because, first of all, I would say that everyone is creative and I think a lot of us carry our own baggage where we think, oh, I can't write a short story or I can't paint or I can't dance or I can't sing, so therefore I'm not a creative person. When really creating a product is creativity, and there are so many forms of creativity, and so I work with lots of product marketers. I teach them how to do messaging. So I've met a lot of product marketers who would probably describe themselves as like, not amazing writers or not creative, and what I've always found is that actually they are naturally quite good at messaging if they just allow themselves to write the way they think about their products.
Emma:So I have one exercise that's a favorite. It's called say it like you would at the barbecue, and it's this idea of okay, imagine your buyer is at a barbecue on the weekend talking to a friend, talking about their problems, talking about how they wish things would change at work, in a very relaxed manner and it you know, holding a beer and a burger, and how would they say it? And that's what I do when a product marketer comes to me with a very kind of B2B tech long winded, complex, dry thing that doesn't really make any sense and they'll be like help, you know, I wrote this. How do I make it less jargony and more simple and better? And I say, all right, what are you trying to say here? And then they say, okay, well, I'm trying to say X, y Z. So how would you say that at a barbecue? And they're like huh, well, I would probably say you know X, y, z.
Emma:And I'm telling you every time what they say is quite good and I'm like write what you just wrote, because you've naturally said it more simply. So we're not talking about flair with language, but just simple words to clearly explain an idea. And then when I tell them that they're like wow, I never really thought the way that. I would naturally just say it was good enough.
Emma:And I think again, it's this, this false thing that we do in B2B tech, where I don't know when it started but it's all perpetuated, like we got to sound really smart and like the smartest guy in the room and we're going to use these big words and we're going to make people feel dumb, but we don't really know what we're talking about either and it's like going around and around and I think people feel pressure when they have to write like that and write for something important.
Emma:So sometimes people naturally dismiss their own kind of innate ability to communicate this product that they really understand. So I think people act and I've worked with really technical people too, where I'm just I draw it out of them. I'm like tell me, well, what can people do with it, et cetera. And they use quite good language, but it's just in there with all the other stuff you know. So you need someone to kind of be like that was really clear, that was really interesting. I like that to kind of help them see the good bits and kind of all the other things they might be saying at the same time.
Gary:Yeah. And when you said that, Emma, it reminded me of one of your recent posts, I think it was where and I'm imagining like highlighting the little words, if you will, or making them modular, where it's the stuff that doesn't back to your point about freeloaders, that it's a nice big word but it doesn't really say anything yeah and transformative yeah, freeloaders, that it's a nice big word but doesn't really say anything like yeah and transformative and yeah, so is do you? I'm almost imagining kind of a word play where you know they say something and you go in there and you like color code those things and say, okay, I'm gonna take this, and now is that a barbecue word right.
Emma:I'm like would you really say that at the barbecue? Yeah great, it's a great thing to just use. And people who've taken my courses they tell me that they do this all the time they write something they're like wait would would I say that the barbecue. And the cool thing is, you will naturally evolve to use less jargon and more clarity, because now that you know this whole barbecue thing, you're able to see these words. So I give talks a lot about jargon and I have this slide where I put up where it has like a lot of common offenders and everyone's like blushing and like oh God, you know, take it off the website, like oh God. And I put it there because I say we all use these words and it's ridiculous for me to tell you to never use a word of jargon ever again.
Emma:It's just not going to happen. There's too much, it's everywhere. But if you can start making some moves, start just taking an extra five minutes looking your messaging. Is there anything here that is just really not saying anything. You know, could we swap it with something more meaningful? And just do a little bit here, here and there. Your mind will start to automatically swap out certain words. Stop using words altogether and you'll evolve over time to be more clear. So take it day by day. I mean the jargon issue is huge. We're never going to kind of remove it all, but barbecue can help you on a day by day basis.
Andy:Yeah, it reminds me of a story working with a data scientist, and I had worked with him for quite a while and he had this, this persona at work, where he was like really stiff. He had to like he had to be the smartest person, Like I think that was expected of him. And I remember it wasn't a barbecue but it was a bar and he got a couple of beers in him and he just he was hilarious and I just remember like like you are, like you're totally a different person and, as you were just saying that about the bar, I'm like maybe part of the strategy is get a couple beers in people too, but I don't know if you endorsed that.
Emma:Well, I used to have an exercise like that, actually called drunk at the party, but I've toned it back because, you know, it's not really mindful of people who maybe don't want to get drunk at the party. But it's that same idea where and I think more and more people are losing a lot of that work persona versus at home persona and we're trying to just be ourselves everywhere. But you know, some industries are still really in the thick of it, as I'm sure you know. There are some industries that are like, wow, everyone is uptight and speaking the jargon, and then there are others that are more relaxed and trying to be more, you know, relatable and human. So we're all at different stages.
Gary:Yeah, yeah, got to meet them where they are.
Emma:That's right.
Gary:So any I'm going to but look, Andy or Tiana jump in here, but I was thinking I'd love to actually tackle.
Gary:We talked about VBF value benefits features.
Gary:I'd actually like to take that same concept into the problem side and get your thoughts on that, because one of the things that we work on consistently with organizations is that and reminding them that their go-to-market engine is there to provide confidence in the decision of the buyer in the problem that they seek to solve, and trusting you that you're the one to do it.
Gary:And it's so easy to forget that about that messaging like a lot of our messaging is focused on what our thing does, but sometimes we lose sight of in it that it is ultimately going to fit into some other ecosystem where there's a lot of other cooks in the kitchen and there's a bunch of stuff that actually our product doesn't necessarily really do or solve for that we need to consider because it's part of the decision-making process and so that needs to be part of the messaging framework. Right, as we speak to those things, how have you taken either that or other frameworks to help tease that language out, like almost to explore, like, what are the unknown things that they don't really talk about or may not even have a words for yet, but they're inherent in their decision process.
Emma:So you're saying how to talk about problems that maybe they haven't articulated themselves, or yeah, sorry, I didn't articulate that well myself. No, no, no, it's okay, I just want to make sure I'm.
Gary:Great example. As we talk, we go on and on about our product and integrations and all the stuff that you can do, but then we fail to recognize that, okay, in order for the company to get to the moment of value, the champion needs to have organ acceptance from the organization. The organization right that I'm going to introduce a new process and there's going to be a bunch of stakeholders involved, and whether I pick your tool or somebody else's tool, that problem still exists, but that's part of the decision. So, actually teasing that out and talking through how we have thought about that for you, and we have a getting started guide or an onboarding process or whatever to help answer that problem, it's almost like problem exploration and language than it is value benefit feature right.
Gary:Same concept applied to the problem side.
Emma:Right, yeah, I mean, it is really similar. So you talked about the go to market engine and building trust, right? So when it comes time and and I think that talking about people's problems in a very real way is how you build trust and will also make you stand out in the B2B space. So one thing about problems a lot of problems that get talked about in B2B are also talked about in very dry kind of high level generic terms. Like you know, solve operational inefficiencies, you know, or all that stuff you know that's like yes, that is correct, but no, there's not one person who's like that's their one job.
Emma:Like operational inefficiencies is like a kajillion things right, you know and so it's far more effective to speak to those individual manifestations of operational efficiencies rather than, you know, that big umbrella term which people often kind of go to. So I always think what I always tell my clients to do is like, if there's something you need to convey or a problem you need to talk about, like, be real and don't feel like you have to be like the God that's going to solve everything and we are the all powerful, all knowing solution. It's like everyone knows that you know we're going to have to fit into an ecosystem, that there's other things at play. Talk honestly about it and call out the problems and the obstacles that they're facing in a real way and lead with that in your content and in your you know materials that you're developing, because that builds trust and someone reads it. They're like ah, they get it. Yeah, I hate that.
Emma:Yeah, show me how you're going to fix it. Like be real, like, yes, long implementation sucks. Like you're not just going to disappear after the sale, like all these things. It's like this is what happens and let's not pretend and use this kind of you know, veneer language. So I always say can you get real, can you be honest, can you be straight to the point and and talk about what's actually on their mind and what they're worried about? And if you can do that, I think you'll really stand out and build trust, because a lot of people dance around it or want to make it seem like everything's going to be perfect, even saying like we're, we do our best and but we know like there's always going to be, you know there could always be something, but don't worry, we're here 24, 7 and and we will, you know, etc. Help you out. So just being honest and real, that's all people want right and that back to your trusting yeah totally.
Andy:It just twinged on something too, which is implementation, and you mentioned that. So I've been saying that if you, if your product requires some, some effort on the part of your customer, that's part of your product. Yeah, Do you get into that in in how you in in how you speak to like a customer, of a customer, Like do you endorse that? Do you get into that much with?
Emma:them Into implementation, into speaking to implementation as like part of everything like part of the product.
Emma:Sometimes we do. Sometimes when it's a big, when it's a huge differentiator, like if it's the new startup taking over the big incumbent, and they're like you can just switch this on in 15 minutes and they take, you know, a month. So only I've only brought it into like core messaging when it's a real, real differentiator from the competitive set. So only when it really is a key part of the story and it feels like it needs to be in there. That's when we bring it in because it is kind of one of the story and it feels like it needs to be in there. That's when we bring it in Because it is kind of one of the most important things. But unfortunately it's like often okay, that's for IT and like they're going to want to know this, but then really we got to be talking about all this other stuff right.
Andy:We can't always message IT Unless there's a big difference. It's kind of table stakes and it's inherent and kind of people. People kind of know that's coming, but you only say it when it really kind of makes a difference.
Emma:Yeah, and that is usually those people that are disrupting the older legacy. You know the bad implementation people.
Gary:Littered with them. Speaking of trust, you said something. So being honest, right, yes, using real terms, where it's like, yes, this is what we're good at, but, equally as important, this is what we're not good at. And then the founder gets involved and says wait, wait, wait, we can do that, we can do that, like I know our product can do that A few little tweaks here or there, and like we don't want to, we don't want to turn off that, that you know avenue of revenue. And then you end up with the. You know we do this and we do this, and we do this and we do this. So when, when you what? What are some strategies you've seen to help arm the team to mitigate some of that? When you get to this clarity but you still have, especially with maybe a very technical founder or a team that's been in an industry literally their whole careers and it's all they know and to them it's like second second nature you know tools that teams can use to help um mitigate that, I guess.
Emma:Yeah, so I have another little exercise, um, which is well. I say, if we could magically wave a wand and be known for one thing, what would it be?
Emma:So, when we kind of like, want to have 10 value propositions, we want to position ourselves as the best in five things, I always just say, like we're playing a game, right, like which one? If you could only have one, which one would it be? Or if that's too painful, it's like, okay, let's get rid of one. If we got to scratch one out of the five, which one got four? All right, let's play another game, let's get rid of one, go down to three and just see if you can get down to one. That's something that I do Also. Single most important takeaway, you know so I say if someone comes to our site quickly, reads, leaves, what's the one takeaway you want them to have about? Because, let's face it, they're not going to remember everything.
Emma:Now, if you have a technical founder who's not even bought into this idea that it should just be one main idea or it needs to be, you know, more clear, I would send them to choose a website. I saw this one website I can't even remember, I think it was in cybersecurity and above the fold was the world's longest sentence, and they promised nine things. I think operational efficiency was one of them. Like, it was like nine things. By the time I read the end of the sentence like I couldn't remember one thing from the beginning of the sentence. So you could say like hey, go here, read this what do you think?
Emma:Yeah, and it's a different area. And they'll be like that's awful and it's like right. And then if you have someone who does it well, show like, hey, what about this one? What's the takeaway? And they'll be like, oh, that's a lot better. And so this idea of try to speak to everyone, speak to no one those are some strategies I've used if people don't quite buy into the idea that we shouldn't say you know everything to everyone.
Emma:A quick story. I worked with a startup. I guess they were, you know, not really Series B, c, I can't remember but they had this technology that would, there, was, it would, it would look at the data and it would, it would. It would analyze historical data, it would analyze data in real time. And then there was a future predictive element. So the product did all three.
Emma:And they were just finishing up like the, the real time one, and they're like oh my God, we've got to talk about all three. And I'm like well, I've been talking to your buyers and they really only care about that real time one. The other ones, they're like great, but I'm obsessed, I got to have this real time element. And I said I think you should double down on real time, because that's what they want. So why not lead with that in the message?
Emma:And they're like no, no, we do all three, like it must be all three. And hey, you can lead a horse to water, right, there's only so much I can do as a consultant. At the end of the day, this is their business and if they don't want to go in a direction, I suggest you know, that's okay. Well, not long after one of their competitors who I had been aware of I'd been looking at when I was working with them, went all in on the real time, on the present concepts, and was was going bananas. They had gotten like all this funding. Everyone wanted to be like them. They were suddenly like the one to watch and I'm sure they had a good product. It wasn't just the messaging but.
Tiana:I thought.
Emma:Isn't it interesting, though, that, like that was it, that was, that was the value proposition. It was echoed throughout the rest of the page. They were positioning themselves largely around that present real time. And it was working, because when you focus on one thing, everyone who cares about that thing. They're like oh, that's the solution for that one thing. Great, I need it. And while you feel like you're limiting your audience, you're actually becoming stronger for the people who are ideal for you. And when you have 10 things, it's like I don't, I don't know, that that's too much. I think the the analogy that I heard once. It's like you know, if you needed heart surgery, would you go to the heart specialist or would you go to the general practitioner?
Tiana:Right.
Gary:Like you want to go to the person who says this is the thing that we do, so yeah, yeah, you bring up such a great point because we run into that frequently, where the companies with whom we're working are either evolving their product line so now they've moved from being a single product to one or two, or maybe they've made some acquisitions or what have you and of course, they want to be able to either talk about all of them, because they're individual components of different parts of the problem to similar industries, because they're individual components of different parts of the problem to similar industries, or they're bringing it together into a common platform and you can buy the pieces, but they really want you to buy it all together and losing sight of this idea, that that you know more than back to that decision.
Gary:Confidence, if you, if I, have crystal clear understanding of my problem and you've helped me define that and you have made it very clear how you solve that problem, and there I therefore have confidence in making that decision. All the other stuff is gravy not to, not to. You know, look, it's hard to pick which one. That is because we're thinking well, but I'm close, I might, by by saying yes to something, I'm saying no to everything else, right, and that, I think, is the hardest decision. But it's like how do you get, how does the yes get you to the next yes, like what is the path that gets you to the subsequent yeses? And stop thinking of it as an all or none, like at the at that point.
Emma:Yeah, I mean that like one yes leading to the next. That is the startup advantage. Like you know, you work on lower mid-market, lower mid-market companies, right, and the ones who often, when they think of messaging, they're like let's just do what salesforce is doing or do what intercom is doing, and and it's like no please don't.
Emma:First of all, they have major problems that you aren't experiencing yet because your company is not at that stage of maturity. You thankful you don't have their problems. I know, I know their problems intimately. You have this advantage where you can actually go narrow because they have to kind of say, oh, we sell to everyone because they kind of do. Go narrow because they have to kind of say, oh, we sell to everyone because they kind of do. And so that is hard but you can really prove that you are the best at this area. So it's knowing that choose a defined audience, choose an area to win and win.
Emma:A lot of times I say to people why don't you keep just talking about like this one idea, even though you're adding a new product? I'm like, why have you? Have you gone through all the market there? They're like, oh no, there's probably still another, like 90%, that we could get. I'm like, why don't you just kind of play that one out and then go to go to the next one? So I worked with a startup where they had kind of started with they were speaking to other tech founders and so they had done a really good job with that and they were kind of wanting to move a bit up market, wanting to move to startups that had more funding behind them. Not just the solo or very small team.
Emma:They wanted one who had a director of finance in there and they were like, oh, we got to change everything. And I was like, actually, no, you don't. You know, your value proposition is still the same. Really, there's just this added element that you need to start talking about to this new audience which is around, I think, scaling operations in some sense, and we brought that into one of the benefits. So it was like weaving in a bit of that into the benefit, but it didn't change kind of the overall value of this platform. Right, it was really just adjusting some of the benefits and the pieces within the messaging to make sure we are acknowledging that, you know, a larger team could use it as well. So it's not like a hey, we're this today, and then it's like burn that to the ground, Okay, we're this now. It's like no, there's a phased approach that you can take to start setting up these product changes and evolutions that you can do, and it's really just maybe a step. It's really not a got to change everything and start all over again.
Gary:Yeah, one other concept I would love to unpack with you is so, basically the call it, the information requirements, ie messaging requirements, that you have as a buyer moves through your process right. So if you think about the entry points, there's a certain back to your point about clarity. Be very specific, because you don't have a lot of their time. They want to get there and they want to know is this for me, what is it, and is it for me? And but then as they move through now this is part of that decision confidence thing is now they're starting to ask second and third and fourth order questions, and so how, in your interviewing style, are you unpacking what those questions may be?
Gary:And then the and I'm sure this comes out of the language that they feed you but then how do we think about messaging? How do we think about messaging? You know it's like don't deliver too much because we don't want to just flood them with. You know, then we overwhelm them and we actually make decision confidence lower versus not giving them enough. So they feel, you know it kind of stalls because they don't feel confident to move forward. How do you balance that as you go forward farther, deeper into the funnel, so to speak?
Emma:forward farther, deeper into the funnel, so to speak. Yeah, I think I use the same kind of vbf model idea and I apply that. I'll apply that to kind of company messaging, product messaging, feature messaging capability. Like you can use that that idea at different stages. The difference is really altitude. I call it altitude, altitude, right. So I talk about altitude in messaging. Where there's high altitude, there's low altitude and there's somewhere in the middle. High altitude is value, bigger, broader, more general, and that is when we're thinking top of funnel. Help me understand what you do. Who are you? You know we start high altitude. Then, as you start going kind of down the funnel or adding more information, you go in lower altitude, so you're going closer into the. What is it? You know how does it work, all the things that that you need to know, but you're still using that same idea of VBF and you're applying it to all the different stages and things you need to talk about.
Emma:So what I like is a top level message, very clear. I want like a clear idea. What are you about? What are you like on the homepage? I want to know what are you basically? Why should I care? And are you for me?
Emma:So kind of who is this for? I want to know just kind of the basic top level. Then I want to know, like well, what are the main like problems you're going to solve for me? You know, what are you actually going to do for me? So I think that's kind of what people want to know, like is this actually going to solve these problems that I have?
Emma:And making those also really clear and focused. So be clear, like which are the main problem, not every problem, but like, can we lead with? These? Are the top you know problems or use cases, whatever you want to call them. But again, using that same clarity and then really just when you think about you know, even getting down to like FAQs and like those pricing, those small things, just really thinking you know what do people want to know and using that honesty, just be you know, straight to the point, tell them, give them what they need. When you're all the way down at the bottom, make it really easy for them. Tell the truth, don't bury the lead, you know, just give them what they want. So it's the same kind of approach, but you're just getting maybe more detailed, more specific, as you kind of go down that journey.
Gary:Yep, you mentioned FAQs and I think that that is the most underutilized, most powerful thing you can have on a pricing page, on a use case page, on a whatever it's like. Just back to your point about interviewing like well, okay, well, what are the? What are the objections or next level questions that people aren't actually going to answer and answer them? I'm amazed at how few companies do that.
Emma:And when you see a good FAQ, you're like wow, they nailed it. You can have personality, you can have some humor.
Tiana:You can connect.
Emma:But then there were bad FAQs. Oh my God. I took a screenshot of one. It was this whole huge page. It was like save the software. It's called Platform X and it was like this huge overwrought website. Then at the bottom it had FAQ and the first one was what is Platform X? The first one was what is PlatformX?
Gary:You have failed. Your whole website has failed.
Emma:Oh my gosh, but that's just like. I don't even know why that happened. But be smart about your FAQ. Ask the real questions that people are actually asking and don't like. You know how some people use it for fishing for compliments Like is this an award winning brand? Why yes, we have won 10 awards.
Gary:Yeah, it reminds me of. Or the other one that I love all the time is which? Which package should I buy?
Emma:It presumes like oh, I'm in, I'm sold. How much should I throw at you Like, oh, I'm in, I'm sold, I just don't know how much should I throw at you?
Gary:Yeah, oh gosh, too much fun. You knew B2B could be so much fun. It's more, it's a lot of fun and we just let it. Yeah, yeah, amen. Well, honest, emma, this has been great. We could go on for another hour. We won't do that to you, but, all right, so excited, tell us about the book. It's coming out here shortly, and what was the journey to get to that book?
Emma:Yeah, the book. Oh my God, so the journey was really my career.
Gary:Is that all no?
Emma:it was just my career, you know, just my career. But I was planning last January I was on this track. I was going to try and get a big publishing deal and that was going to be a slow process, like I was looking at a five year. So I was like, okay, in five years I'll have a book out. And I met with April Dunford, who's a friend now, yeah, and she was like I was like, well, where did she? Told me where she did her book and she's like she's self published right.
Emma:Yes, and so she told me about her publisher. She's like you should use them. They're amazing. She's like you should just write the book.
Emma:And I thought I'm just gonna write the book and so I wrote it in six months last year. Yeah, yeah, it was. I do not recommend doing that. I will never write a book in six months again, but I was. I've been sitting on this stuff in my mind, you know, for so long. I was really excited to finally just take everything I know and put it in a step by step process that marketers, founders, anyone can use to write simple human messaging. I just wanted to do it, so I toiled away last year and finally it's coming out on September 18. And I just hope it helps people. You know, messaging is not easy. It is hard for everyone and there's not a lot of resources that are that really show, hold people's hand throughout the often difficult journey that is writing messaging. So I wanted this to be a companion, a source of support and motivation and information.
Gary:Yeah Well, we're envious because we, you know same kind of thing. It's like the decades of experience that are you know in your head, that are in frameworks or Google Docs or whatever that man. I would love to distill this so that when you have somebody that is you know exploring these things and you know you can help them, but it you know the ability to just say, look, it's all here, take a look at it. That's, that's awesome.
Gary:So the name of the book for those that are going to go directly to Amazon and get pre make it punchy make it punchy and we're gonna put that in the show notes yes, make it punchy, hopefully easy to remember so that is there. And then how else, if people want to connect with you, emma, where should they go to find you?
Emma:yeah, linkedin's the best place. Just emma stratton. I think it's emma underscore stratton, maybe punchy, but emma stratton, founder of punchy, I'm sure I'll pop up. Um, I share a ton about messaging. Every week I have a newsletter as well, and you can find a link to my newsletter on my LinkedIn as well.
Gary:Awesome and we will include that in the show notes as well. So hang around for a second. But for everybody else, Emma, thank you for the time. It was outstanding, we learned a ton and for those of you listening, we will see you again next week. Thanks and bye. Thank you for tuning in to GTM Pro, where you become the pro. We're here to foster your growth as a revenue leader, offering the insights you need to thrive. For further guidance, visit gtmproco and continue your path to becoming board-ready with us. Share this journey, subscribe, engage and elevate your go-to-market skills. Until next time, go be a pro.