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Outbound Evolution: The New Business Model Era

May 31, 2024 Gary, Andy & Tiana Season 2 Episode 5
Outbound Evolution: The New Business Model Era
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gtmPRO
Outbound Evolution: The New Business Model Era
May 31, 2024 Season 2 Episode 5
Gary, Andy & Tiana

Join us as we go over the past 4 editions of Outbound May, where industry thought leaders Matt McFee, Jesse, Mark, and Tito explore the "creative data tinkerer" role in B2B outbound strategies for LMM companies. 

We discuss:

  • How AI tools like GPT and Gemini are reshaping data usage and why a precise Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) backed by robust research is crucial. 
  • Performance marketing secrets with innovative data approaches to identify customer needs, comparing traditional techniques with modern methods like data enrichment and time-based triggers. 
  • Rethinking sales development representatives' roles, transitioning from volume-based to skill-based approaches, targeting customer readiness. 
  • Building valuable customer relationships and driving engagement.

For more insights, go to:
gtmPRO
Andy's LI
Gary's LI

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Join us as we go over the past 4 editions of Outbound May, where industry thought leaders Matt McFee, Jesse, Mark, and Tito explore the "creative data tinkerer" role in B2B outbound strategies for LMM companies. 

We discuss:

  • How AI tools like GPT and Gemini are reshaping data usage and why a precise Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) backed by robust research is crucial. 
  • Performance marketing secrets with innovative data approaches to identify customer needs, comparing traditional techniques with modern methods like data enrichment and time-based triggers. 
  • Rethinking sales development representatives' roles, transitioning from volume-based to skill-based approaches, targeting customer readiness. 
  • Building valuable customer relationships and driving engagement.

For more insights, go to:
gtmPRO
Andy's LI
Gary's LI

Andy:

because the detractors they'll self-identify with in colorful ways. Oftentimes they will self-identify, but that should be the default right. It should all come down to game theory boom.

Gary:

Start with open to learn welcome to the gtm pro podcast, your essential audio resource for mastering go-to-market discussions in the boardroom. Here we share insights for revenue leaders at B2B software and services companies, especially those with less than $50 million in revenue. Why? Because the challenges faced by companies of this size are unique. They are too big to be small and too small to be big. This dynamic pushes revenue leaders into executive leadership without a lot of help or support. We are here to provide that support your journey to boardroom excellence.

Gary:

All right, we are getting ready to actually do kind of a and it's not necessarily a wrap up because next week we have Kyle Norton with us, but we've had an opportunity to speak now with Matt McPhee, with Jesse, with Mark and with Tito about outbound, but we've in the process of those discussions. We have actually really hit on business model design in a lot of ways and it's very confirming for what we've been feeling and seeing in the lower middle market about how we really need to think about resource allocation. So we thought we'd take this as an opportunity to just take a pause before we jump in with Kyle to have him wrap us up next week, to just reflect back on the common themes that we've heard across each of those discussions, which have been fantastic, and we will link to those or you can find them on gtmproco. So let's go through those and and this is free form a little bit so let's just shout out here what we've seen and we started. Before we started recording, we were talking about.

Gary:

One of the things that very clearly was a common theme was this idea of the creative data tinkerer. The creative data tinkerer and that you know, mark referred to basic contact data as salt, a commodity, right? It? It seems like eons ago, but it really was just a year or two ago where the common thread was we're going to go to a tool like zoom info or a lot of others. We're going to pull, we're going to do a filter. We're going to pull industries, we're going to pull contacts. We're going to go to a tool like Zoom Info or a lot of others. We're going to do a filter. We're going to pull industries. We're going to pull contacts. We're going to get information and we're going to load them in and we're just going to reach out and contact and that data is everywhere and the difference now that, I think, is really having a profound impact on the kinds of tools that we use but, more importantly, the people that we need on the team and how we structure the team is this creative data tinkerer which is now thinking very specifically about where can I find data about my customer and we'll get to what data means in a second and how can I do that creatively?

Gary:

And the new class of AI tools and, frankly, gpt and Gemini and the others themselves have opened up this wild west of opportunity and a creativity that you almost feel like it's early days, where people are trying to figure it out, but in a lot of ways, it's hard to see how that comes into, you know, conforms, into some standard operating procedure, because the creativity is there and it informs the creativity. So let's talk through the pieces of the data that are required. So one is and I think we gloss over this ideal customer profile the fact that you know that, and not only do you know it, but you have it confirmed with quantitative and qualitative data supported by research and findings, and what have you, especially in the lower middle market? That can't be overstated because, honestly, we have seen way too many ICPs formed with strong opinions and weak data, and if you don't get that right, that is the price of admission. So, presuming you have that, there's attribute data around your ICP, so size of firm industries, growth rates, things like that. Then there are signals around your ICP that are a little bit harder to find and this is where the creativity starts to come in.

Gary:

This is where we think to ourselves okay, we know our ideal customer so well, we understand the things that are happening inside of their organization. That signal that they're having the problems that we can solve and that they're in their particular spot, having the problems that we can solve and that they're in their particular spot. And we now have the opportunity to think creatively about, if that's true, where will that reveal itself across the world? And what is the data that I could go get, either as a direct signal or a proxy to a signal, to figure that out, signal to figure that out. And that takes not just understanding the data and how to write a really great prompt and combine it with other data sources to develop that, but knowledge about the customer and the business to ask the right questions in the first place. And I think that's a major change. So I'll pause there because then we can take it down into person level details, but any reflection. I know you know they've all talked about this, so what? What jumped out to you?

Andy:

guys, you've been talking about this being the new performance marketing, right? So going back to you know being a database marketer and cutting my teeth in that and creating these models right, and I didn't do that. Statisticians did that, but they built these models right. And I didn't do that. Statisticians did that, but they built these models based on whatever variables we had at scale against huge. These are this was the Dun Bradstreet list Axiom, infobase, experian these are all the big ass you know lists that you could buy.

Andy:

Going way back to that, figuring out what data you got you know across all of that that had some scale to it and then running an ordinary least squares regression model against it and figuring out where your pockets of responsiveness were. And this is, in this case, direct response marketing. There are aspects of that here, which is marketing. There are aspects of that here, which is I'm still looking for those data points at scale. I'm looking to see where there are signals against that. You're not building necessarily although that's possibly an opportunity is to build some kind of you know regression model against this stuff, but you know not doing that.

Andy:

What can we do? That's something analogous. Where can we find data that matters, you know, and whether somebody in a particular role may be strained due to some condition. You know, cfo, they don't have a controller. They've grown this much. Just, you think about these scenarios and there are signals in there somewhere and you have to kind of figure out what matters and tease it out. And it's that ballgame, it's performance marketing and it's just. It's just a different playing field now.

Gary:

Yeah, and so fantastic. I love the database marketing and the regression piece of it. So we'll come back to that. But you know, if we, if we keep going down in terms of the data game related to that, then it's the person level information. So now we understand the company, what's happening, but, to your point, the people and that dynamic can be companies that have the exact same attributes and even the same signals underneath the hood if they're organizationally designed differently. So you brought up the idea of a CFO and no controller, or a controller, no CFO, that creates a dynamic in the organization that could be the perfect seed for your product or the antithesis of it.

Gary:

Right, and so understanding that level of detail, and so that's one of those attributes I'm not sure the right word for it. I called it kind of seasonal or it's. You know it's, it's, it's not immutable and it can change, but it doesn't change rapidly and so there's probably a season of time where those dynamics exist. Maybe it's a several months, a few quarters, a year that once you have it, it's like, okay, we can, we can run with this for a little bit of time. Then there are others that are time-based, where truly something happens, and a lot of that is intent data, or it could be a signal at the company, or it could be obviously job change things like that that have a relatively short window on which we can act and the understanding of what creates the right ingredients, the right environment, and then what are time-based or intent-based triggers that we need to act on so that we can take advantage of that recency.

Gary:

That's a lot right, that's a lot to work through, and I think this idea that we have quote unquote, revops and somebody who's out filtering, doing a simple filter on Zoom info here these attributes come back, these leads, load them, them up in the system and let's call it a day that, that the inability. If you can't do this in your organization, then this is the price of admission. Every one of our guests have said that this is the price of admission to do this.

Tiana:

Well, yeah, they and I also agree that enrichment is like a huge part of it, like Matt mentioned it, jesse mentioned it, mark mentioned it. Well, mark, highlighting that without it, it's salt.

Tiana:

But, it definitely, like enrichment, is the most important part of your data because without it, like without that level of personalization, without you understanding specifically like I mean even tito mentioned, like the multi-channel approach, where you have to be involved with your buyer, like in in every different channel, and understand what they like, what they don't, uh, what they do, uh, who they speak to and even who they listen to. Like without it you, you basically will get nowhere.

Gary:

Yep, yeah, and that's the piece. Right is what we used to describe enrichment as go to other third party data sources that you would call static. Right, here are the data points that we have and we'll pull those in and that's enriched. These are data points that ebb and flow and change over time, which means now we actually have to think differently about where we put all this stuff. Where is this data going to live? Does it go to Salesforce, does it not? What stays, what doesn't?

Gary:

You can see the implications here. We start now changing the data that we're using, the technology that we're using, what gets pushed, what doesn't. Changing the data that we're using, the technology that we're using, what gets pushed, what doesn't, you're starting to see cropping up. Chris Walker talks about signal-based marketing and one of his hypotheses is that and the reason he's developed his company is that in order to understand what's repeatable, we have to understand the signals that were used to drive the action, and most companies aren't doing that today. We to understand the signals that were used to drive the action, and most companies aren't doing that today. We're pulling the signals together and then we're taking action, but we're not necessarily measuring the inputs into that, which I think is another dynamic.

Andy:

I was just thinking of where good data goes to die, right? I mean, if it's real temporary, why would you shove it in Salesforce, right, like if it's dynamic? And back to the old concept, when we brought this up recently, of a marketing database. And I think that it needs to be reimagined. Where you know there's going to be a lot of dynamic variables that expire, you have to put discipline around what is the expiration? This data is good for this long and after that is such a good point.

Gary:

I love the expiry. And you go back to your database marketing, right. Think about all the data that you pulled in those days. I mean probably hundreds, if not thousands of data points that came together to feed the model, to know where to go. Not suggesting that we need thousands of data points, but the reality is that that lived in a data mart or data warehouse or back in the day when they used to call it that, right, and there was very few attributes or things or signals that actually got over to your core systems because they're fungible, right. Why? Why push all that stuff in the place where good data goes to die? I love that as well. Um, that's a really, really good point, and probably there's a whole, so that there's gonna be a new discipline around that.

Andy:

There has to be like around this you know it's a different layer. I'll just loosely refer to it as a marketing database, which you know that wasn't. That's an old, is now new again concept which is like there needs to be this. I mean HubSpot can do that, like there's, you know, entities that kind of serve that purpose and we've seen that right Like HubSpot is the layer a lot of times that occurs before you really put things away. And you know now you have deals and you have accounts and you've converted these things and you know now it's more, you know in your pipeline and it's a different animal.

Andy:

But this stuff that happens before that, that you're you know, and this is what we'll get into here. Obviously is this notion of creating a relationship right While you're in that phase and I don't want to jump too far ahead about the buyer stages and all that but when you're not in a deal process with someone, you're still developing a relationship and as you're doing that, that's where you need to have a different system to manage that. That's your marketing. We've always called it nurture, but that needs to be a lot deeper and to that point the data is going to be more dynamic, it's going to be more fungible. It's going to be, you know, stuff that we need to be much, much more on top of, in a different way than we've ever really contemplated.

Gary:

That's interesting. It really, I mean I guess we knew it intuitively, but it really does go to the data infrastructure required, and it's also true not only for activation but for reporting as well, and we've advocated for a long time for a data warehouse driven reporting operational metrics reporting system, because it will do a far better job of reporting on the system than the individual point solution tools will. Having said that, that is another consideration for resource allocation, which is that doesn't come free right, both in terms of tools as well as expertise, and that's a very challenging piece. That is another topic for another discussion on how you solve for that, because that, and lower middle market in particular, that's a very difficult thing to resource. So we'll come back to that.

Gary:

But it also goes to the next topic, which is around team structure, and Mark did a fantastic job of talking about refactoring the SDR function and really rethinking sales development, and he advocated around channels and email, social and phone, and one of the things that we discussed as he was talking about email is where does this sales development, email expert begin and demand generation end, and you can start to see the overlap between the two and it starts to have you reimagine well what is the role of demand gen? Where does that fit? How does that relate to a sales development function, when you can be much more creative and targeted in the emails that you're sending out, based on all the data points that we just described? And I think that's an important element of this as well it's not just hiring a bunch of sales development people and arming them with AI tools and having them do the same stuff they used to do, as we say, slathering AI over the top of it and calling it a day.

Tiana:

Yeah, and also something that Tito mentioned around it is the skill set that each of these people have to have, just merging both of their ideas.

Tiana:

Like Mark talking about channels and Tito talking about skills, tito said that not the person that wants to like the storyteller, the one that makes you Tito talks about people being open to learn so, like, the majority of the people should be around, like that, 40 to 50% of the market should be around there and Tito mentioned specifically that, like, people that are the storytellers that actually make you think about, like, rethinking your solutions or changing your solutions to the ones that you're actually at, are not even the same people that the ones that maybe close the deal, because of people the closers are are more intense, they're more driven, they they want things to be like at the second and storytellers are more empathetic.

Tiana:

They think more about, like, what you should be going through. So I don't know, just putting a lot of these like these skills, like around what mark talked about, like around the new roles that should be out there, and just thinking about if, if they are the same people like, if the person that actually introduces the new like prospect to the company is the same person that is going to be closing that deal and like even even going around like that, that, like just rethinking the functions to that level is just huge.

Andy:

That's a huge point. I have to jump in here, point. That's a huge point. I I have to jump in here. So the storyteller, which we will affectionately refer to as the glen, please listen to tato talk about this, because it's very eye-opening and, ironically, it's such a good story.

Tiana:

It's the kind of steve story you know.

Andy:

But it's literally about opening eyes. Right, and that point, tiana, that you may have two AEs and one is good at the first and terrible at the second, and vice versa, right? So there is this storytelling, this Glenn role, and then there's the closer role which is, you know, in a lot of ways relationship driven and knowing like and very process driven, and he, he articulated that very well. So, again, listen to that. But here's, here's the punch line, right? So when you start talking about using either one of those resources for prospecting, what do we say to that? What do we say to that? That's probably the wrong answer. That's a big that's like so that again, in the lower middle market, let alone splitting out sales roles into storytelling and closing, which we don't, we never see, but that's something that people should consider Also, just simply saying like, well, we need to do more prospecting, we need to do more outbound, and putting in an AE on that is a terrible answer, like that's going way in the wrong direction, that's way misusing that resource for not saying it's beneath them.

Andy:

Let's be very clear, because that's actually the opposite of what we're now saying about the BDR-SDR role, is it's actually more senior than probably what happened several years ago when people were just throwing resources against it and just it was fodder right. It was like let's just get volume here, let's have them prospect a bunch of stuff, generate a bunch of these leads. Go on LinkedIn sales navigator, just pull, pull, pull and then reach out and ask people for a meeting. It's not that anymore. It's its own skillset, it's its own relatively advanced skillset and you need a more senior person on that. So I want to be very clear about that. But that is again very different from what Tiana just referred to in terms of splitting out, even in AE's role, potentially.

Gary:

Sorry, andy. You know, what's really interesting to me that's kind of jumped out through all of this, is the approach. Appropriately has been about outbound, and so it's been very much a sales-oriented, oriented, sales development, bdr, ae kind of discussion in terms of what we should be saying and doing and what have you. But the reality is, what we're really describing is what the entire go-to-market engine should be doing, and it has implications, then, for marketing. We just talked about it.

Gary:

Demandgen now includes this piece of it, and so does this creative tinkerer live in marketing? Do they live in quote RevOps, are they in some business analyst data role? Because the reality is that creative tinkering isn't limited to just new logo acquisition. It is also necessary and important in understanding our customers having success. What can we see outside of our own internal product analytics, which might tell 10% of the story? What can we see out in the world that would cause them to need us to lean in, whether positively or negatively, to prevent churn or to lean into expansion? Right, it's, it is a. It is a creative tinkering of data across the entire engine, not just for that.

Gary:

So how does that? How does that change then the relationship where you have this prospecting go. We're actually touching this in a second around the stages which which both tito and mark hit on, as you pointed out, tiana, and so now we get into okay, well, what is it we're asking of this function? What is the goal? How do we measure it? If we're at different places in different stages, how do we identify that and how does that then follow through into onboarding and activation and some form of customer success relationship Like that needs to be a re-imagined as well. So, to me, this whole thing around outbound is actually the tip of the iceberg of what's really going on under the hood, which is we are in the process of just completely reforming what a business should look like. Well, it's a data renaissance.

Andy:

In my opinion, right, it's because there's all these new ways to gather data. I mean to me one of the biggest. I mean we've talked about all kinds of ways that analysts could help a business, right, that this the role of an analyst is, you know, is needed almost you know, almost everywhere.

Andy:

when you really think about it. Now, whether that just means you need to, like, make sure people in certain functions are analytical, that's another way to skin that cap. But to your point about current customers, right, there's a world of opportunity in terms of really refining what makes for a sticky customer. And, to your point, it's not just product data and, for God's sake, it's not just product data that some tool gives you and you use their rote model that they you know they built for every single SaaS business on the planet. Build your own, like, figure out for yourself, at a minimum, what makes customers tick using your product. But, to your point, beyond that, there's all this other stuff that we just alluded to that you can use for prospecting too. What about for cross-sell? Let alone retention in new logo, cross-sells like somewhere in the middle and absolutely applicable to all of that.

Gary:

So go back to the data. I'm going to circle back quickly to the data infrastructure, because when you mentioned HubSpot, that was the catalyst of the thought is actually HubSpot would be fine for quote, marketing database. But marketing isn't just new logo acquisition. Marketing activates the entire revenue engine from beginning to end. And so you know, hubspot may not be the place for that and it's. We get to the same point where it's. It's built for a certain type of once you create the custom field. There's not, there's not an in no, no, it's not an insufficient amount of work to do that and then think about the implications of that custom field and where it lives across everything. And so it is. It is a different way to think about the data layer of your business and where it lives and what's immutable, what's you know, what's, what's periodic and episodic and what's fungible.

Andy:

No, I was in no way advocating for using HubSpot in that manner. I think that HubSpot is also a way to call it static and or rigid in its structure for those purposes. I was just saying it's more like what we're talking about relative to Salesforce, and we've seen it used more like a marketing layer and that's part of its role, if you will, a lot of times in terms of you know it's got these tools, it's you know, it's where our landing pages live a lot of times and so on. But I think the data piece, to your point, it really it's a different animal entirely. It's so it's gotta be so dynamic that it's like you know something. You need to be able to bring data in and out. You know, try this variable, okay. You know, yeah, we're going to start using that more, whatever, and just swap things in and out. I don't think hubspot's um useful for that yeah, no, I would.

Gary:

No, I was not suggesting that, you were confirming that, I think it's just something that jumped out at me. All right, let's move on to stages of the buyer, because, tiana, you just brought this up is, both Mark and Tito had different versions of this, and Mark was very thoughtful in terms of how he was suggesting how, in this case, an SDR or an AE actually can have success, as they understand where the buyer is in terms of what they say and what they reach out and what the goals are. And to think of that, andy, from your point as a relationship that you're trying to build. Now, I think that's a lot easier when you have targeted accounts, and it's just a matter of when, not if you want this company to buy Much harder in higher volume places where you're canvassing a really wide net and you're trying to do that. And therefore that's my point about the logic still stands. It's just that the onus of responsibility moves from the individual quote SDR to the organization, to marketing. How do we as an organization create that relationship and garner that attention?

Tiana:

I, for one, absolutely believe that when marketing is sending out the leads, that they should be tagged at to what stage they're at. And I don't know if that's possible. I don't know how you can like actually realize that that's a thing, but they should definitely be be tagged as what stage, like, for example, for mark it was an aware, aware, consideration, decision and for titito it was like in the market, like open to change, open to learn, and well, of course, the detractors that just basically don't want to hear anything about it. But we should be able to reference to what stage they're at and there should be like even guides for the AEs and SDRs on how to but that most people, most SDRs, most AEs, talk to you as if you were already ready to buy.

Tiana:

And that's the minimum percent of the market. It's like 3% for both of them. I believe that they both agreed it was 3% of the market and if you really really think about it, just make it more human. What we talked about, at least with Tito, it was the car analogy. Like you walk in on the street and someone walking on and you're like, which type of car do you want to buy? And I was I'm like I don't know, Like, like I don't even want to buy a car and like and most of these the conversations that at least I get, like most of the because I, we all get spammed with those and they they're like do you want to switch your CRM to? And I'm, I'm not even interested. So they just assume that because you have like a title, they can talk to you. Like you're already ready to buy for something that will move course for the thing that they're selling.

Gary:

Like you're already ready to buy for something that will move course for the thing that they're selling, and I would say that you brought up Tito's perspective on that, which I actually really, really. I just wholly latched onto that and I'm going to give him credit till I'm blue in the face. But the thing that I really liked about his approach, which was open to buy, that's the 3%. Pick a number, it doesn't matter if it's three, five, seven, it's small right In the market, In the market, right, they're actively searching for a solution. Then there's open to change, which was a bigger but still small. Call it 10%-ish. Again, the absolute doesn't matter. And that's really in a situation where they're not actively in market. But this thing, this current situation, is so painful or there's been some impact or change, acquisition, whatever that's causing them to think man, this cannot work much longer. We got to find a solution to this. They just haven't actually initiated the process.

Gary:

Open to change can quickly convert to open in market or open to buy, but the biggest pool, but not the total pool, is open to learn, and the way I described it or thought of it was that they're really circles within circles. So the reality is, if you're in market or open to change, then in market is a subset of open to change. Open to change is a subset of open to learn. Open to change is a subset of open to learn. And so now, as I think about to your point, tiana, yeah, it would be frankly a fool's errand, I think, to try to figure out exactly where people are in the aware, unaware, what have you stages. But all of that is encapsulated in this open to learn.

Gary:

If you are super specific in your ICP and you have an intimate knowledge of life in their shoes, then now I have to go out and actually create really good information around those things so that you are open to learn. And if I've earned that, if you are open to learn and I have earned a relationship with you, I have earned your attention. I can then find out if you're open to change or in market right, because I've got first party signals, I've got content that I'm providing you, I can introduce things along the way, and such a thoughtful way to really think about that. And, by the way, 50% are like go away, I don't want to change, I'm, I'm turning you off. And so we're. Many times the old model is indiscriminate, like we blast everybody with the same message about our tool.

Andy:

A hundred percent. I mean, both of you guys like summarized it great, like you can argue about the percentages. You know that the people in market, like you know this, it's not very many, like it's going to be under five percent, whether it's one, two, three, four, whatever that's how many are like literally in the process. So why would we go out with the message that is tailored to them? So why would we go out with the message that is tailored to them? To me, this is like almost like a game theory question. And, gary, you're absolutely right, like all of those so open to change and in market are subsets of open to learn. So what if we don't know of any, if we don't know anybody, anything about anybody other than like what we can gather? And we need to get really good at gathering that information to be to hone in as much as possible in the right sandbox. So we're fishing in the right lake and we know that the right fish are in that lake.

Andy:

What our default should be? A message around being open to learn. Like that that should, because the detractors, they'll self-identify in colorful ways. Oftentimes they will self-identify, but that should be the default, right. It should all come down to game theory boom. Start with open to learn yeah, it's the biggest percentage, it just makes sense. It makes sense and it's also the most applicable broadest message, right, like, so it doesn't like, if they're open to change and they're in market, it's not gonna hurt you, right? And then what you will discover to Gary's point is they will indicate, they will signal that they are one of those things and at that point, tiana, perhaps we can map that and figure out and like, of course we're going to want to like, identify that against the lead or whatever we have. Um, but that's that's my take. It kind of just was an epiphany, right?

Gary:

and that's when you get to scoring, and but intelligent scoring. So I know we're running short on time here. So a couple of things. One we just talked about the importance of open to learn and this is the boogeyman that nobody really talked about when they took for granted was content, content with a capital C. Right, mark talks about the importance of providing case studies and learnings and things that a sales rep can do.

Gary:

Most of the organizations in the lower middle market, quite frankly, have not invested in producing really, really good content, and that doesn't mean more and more blog posts or white papers or what have you, but genuinely understanding and being a thought leader, helping your target customer and your target persona, think through all the challenges that relate to your product and doing that in a way that's, frankly, sometimes agnostic to your product, and that doing that well is a whole nother podcast that we've talked about, which is this idea of the investigative journalist, which is you need to invest in someone who owns the understanding of that at that deep, deep level, which, by the way, is changing all the time. It's changes based on the time of year going into. For example, we're about to turn the corner on 24 and start thinking about 25, right, we get into the second third quarter in 1st of July and, very quickly, people are thinking about what's going to happen in third quarter and already making plans for the annual planning cycle for 25. That is a season in business that's going to influence how people are thinking. We need to understand how our target customer is being affected by that especially, and it's going to be different for 25 than it was for 24. And so that's that cannot be understated and that's a whole nother podcast, because that is probably one of the most difficult things to solve for.

Gary:

The other is, I would say, incentive structures, which we haven't spent a lot of time on because the classic SDR model of activities and meetings is no longer the point necessarily. There are some cases where that is the point. I think Tito would argue that, yeah, getting to a meeting is the point in that model, but there's a lot that goes around that and the incentive of the team and how we structure that. Mark Roberge and his podcast, science of Scaling, even talked with a CRO at a company who's done away with commissions for AEs, because he found that it actually was getting in the way of the kind of alignment and thinking that they needed. Now, that's not true in every business and every situation, but incentive structures drive a lot and we have these tried and true models that, frankly, may not fit what we need to do.

Gary:

So that's what's exciting for us is that this again, this outbound topic, is the tip of a much bigger iceberg around really rethinking the structure of the go-to-market engine in an era where we went through a one-way door. We're not going back to the predictable revenue era. We're in a different era and we need to think differently. Okay, no-transcript this up with really a guide, an outbound guide, as we think about, especially for the lower middle market, kind of the tools and pieces that are necessary and start to unpack this as we think about structures and timelines and capabilities and even incentive structures and things like that. So we're excited to do that. You can find it on gtm proco, so go subscribe so you can get access to that.

Tiana:

All right, andy tiana I think that's a wrap is that a? Wrap. We can say bye. You did it, take it away, I stole it, sold it Bye.

Gary:

See you next week. Everybody, Thank you for tuning in to GTM Pro, where you become the pro. We're here to foster your growth as a revenue leader, offering the insights you need to thrive. For further guidance, visit gtmproco and continue your path to becoming board ready with us. Share this journey, subscribe, engage and elevate your go-to-market skills. Until next time, go, be a pro.

Business Model Design and Data Tinkering
Signal-Based Marketing and Data Enrichment
Rethinking Sales and Marketing Structure
Revamping the Outbound Marketing Strategy