gtmPRO

Decoding B2B Sales: Show the d@#! product (Lower Middle Market Edition)

February 02, 2024 Gary, Andy & Tiana Season 1 Episode 9
gtmPRO
Decoding B2B Sales: Show the d@#! product (Lower Middle Market Edition)
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Hey there PROs!

Ever found yourself navigating the B2B sales landscape and thinking there's got to be a simpler way? Our guest, Eric Dodds from RudderStack shares that sentiment, and in this episode, we talk about easing the often complex sales process for businesses under $50 million in revenue. We walk through the steps companies can take to make crucial sales information accessible on demand, thereby lightening the load for buyers and expediting the path to product validation in a competitive market.

Here are the blog posts that we talked about: 



Gary:

Welcome to the GTM Pro Podcast, your essential audio resource for mastering go-to-market discussions in the boardroom. Here we share insights for revenue leaders at B2B Software and Services companies, especially those with less than 50 million in revenue. Why? Because the challenges faced by companies of this size are unique. They are too big to be small and too small to be big. This dynamic pushes revenue leaders into executive leadership without a lot of help or support. We are here to provide that support. Your journey to boardroom excellence starts now. Andy's nursing a back that got severely strained doing some hardcore skiing.

Andy:

It really tweaked it, I wiped out and my ski went flying 50 yards into the woods because the brake didn't deploy. Climbing through a snow drift in the woods, that's the worst. Gary tried to do surgery on it afterwards. He's like my mechanic, I guess.

Gary:

Apparently it didn't work. I'm like, well, I'm not sure if that worked or not. Here, just don't fall again. I didn't.

Andy:

I'm good, though. If that's the way my back gets tweaked, so be it. You have a story. You have a good story. This is why I'm handicapped.

Gary:

Exactly Okay. Well, we're really excited to have our good friend Eric Dodds here joining us for this band of misfits as we talk about all things good market. Eric, welcome. Thanks for having me. Good to be here. Absolutely, it's awesome.

Gary:

So, for context, eric heads product marketing at Rutter Stack and we have a long history together, having tackled a variety of GTM problems, and so we're really excited to have him, since he's in the trenches, admittedly in a name brand venture backed startup which has had a lot of success. But Eric's background is such that he can translate some of that playbook to what is relevant for lower middle market companies that don't have a war chest of tens of millions of dollars to deploy. So appreciate that All right. So, actually, in a conversation that Eric and I had earlier today, we're going to pivot a little bit about our original topic. Something that is near and dear to our hearts in terms of the modern B2B buyer and what we're trying to get those that are in the software and services space to understand is that buyers don't actually want to talk to your salespeople, not as limited as possible. So, when in doubt, show the damn product. We can be probably more politically correct than using that. So this is an exact case of that, and we want to talk through that a little bit.

Gary:

Let's provide some context to what we mean by that, and that is that in a and especially in the lower middle market, because in most of those cases we have companies that are competing in mature segments with lots of options and there is immense confusion in the buyer. So, again, one of our core themes is that, as hard as it is to sell in this environment, it is even harder for the buyer to buy because they are forced to navigate through all of the stuff that sounds and looks the same to try to figure out what's really going to work for them. And so we understand that, hey, it would be great if we just want you to get on a conversation and learn more about that, but that's a major time investment, and now they have to think through the 50 potential opportunities or, excuse me, options that they may have to do that. So what do we do? We start to take what is typically covered, at least at a surface level, in those initial sales conversations and make it available to be consumed on demand. What questions are we trying to answer and, more importantly, how that helps you solve a problem.

Gary:

So, eric, if we can ask you to share a little bit about what we talked about this morning, just a high level of situation, and obviously don't go into any detail that you don't want to go into. But what were you seeing and how did you tackle it?

Eric:

Sure, Well, one of the things that and just a little bit of context on our go to market motion we sell to a technical buyer. We're a technical product and we sell to a technical buyer and one of the things that is a key part of our buyer journey is the technical persona validating that the product can achieve what they need to achieve from a technical standpoint. Now we deal in the world of customer data. Ruttersack does, and so the ultimate manifestation of what happens with customer data is some sort of marketing use case or customer success use case or product use case. You want to reduce churn, you want to personalize messaging, you want to do something with your customer data, and RutterSack sits upstream of that. And even though many times, especially at larger companies, there ends up being a buying group where the technical buyer is the champion of the deal, they may bring in a key internal stakeholder who is going to be impacted downstream in the use case that they're trying to execute. That relies on the customer data that the technical buyer is purchasing RutterSack to provide.

Eric:

If that makes sense and I'm having a discussion I think there's been many, many oceans of digital ink spilled about how the environment has changed. But when the market was flush with cash. I think that people, at least what we have seen, is that people just had more margin to explore different tools to solve their problems and there was just a lot less price sensitivity. And so because you had, you know, because there was just so much liquidity and people were buying a ton of software, I think there was a lot more appetite to sit through the gates that you normally have to sit through in a sales process, Right, and I think I would call it appetite, and probably just more tolerance.

Eric:

Yes, higher. I was trying to be generous. Yeah, no one likes to sit through that. But you know, and the dynamic, really, if we had to break it down, is that the reason those gates exist is so that the sales person can maximize the size of the deal. Right, the high deal situation is having control of a conversation where they can, you know, understand the problem and present as comprehensive as possible a solution so that they can maximize the deal size.

Eric:

That's their job, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. That's literally what they're paid to do, right, and you know, part of their, a significant part of their compensation depends on them being able to increase the size of the deal. So that dynamic, you know, makes a lot of sense. But the challenge, I think, is that and we're seeing this come to fruition in the current market climate is that the you know, whereas before there may have been tolerance to sit through multiple meetings where you're getting a basic explanation, I'm getting a basic explanation of the product. I think that buyers, in today's climate, they're just the tolerance has really dropped. For, you know, like, if you're not going to tell me what you do, then it's not worth my time.

Gary:

Right.

Eric:

I'm going to move on to. I'm going to move on to something else where I you know, where I can actually understand what the product does, ideally before we even start a sales conversation.

Gary:

Right, and Eric the, so Rutter Stack, that market has evolved a lot as well. So, if you go back, you've been there four years now, almost five, yeah Well, almost four, almost four years. Okay. So you know, if you think about the market into which now, granted, take out the zero interest rate environment, everything there, but just in terms of the options for what Rutter Stack provides, yep, and I think that has expanded a lot as as right as the data stack continues to mature. And so, in addition to the change in the market, I think also there is that increasing noise, right, 100%, and that's where those companies in the lower middle market see all the time, and I think that's where it gets harder and harder. It's not just the lack of desire to sit through that, but that the specificity of the questions that need to be answered or such that it gets harder and harder to do that when there are more and more people all saying the same thing.

Eric:

Absolutely. I mean, one of our products, you know, are sort of like a group of products, which is really where we started out as a company. We're seeing just rapid commoditization of that suite of products you know and it's, you know, we don't have to go into a ton of detail, but sort of data pipelines and integration and I mean, ironically, the. The really funny thing about that is you can almost trace the open source code lineage back to the biggest player in the market who basically invented this way of doing things and it's open source. And so you know, rudder stack started by forking that project and then a number of other companies have done the same thing and then there are now companies forking what we did, which is Larry. So when you look out, you know when you're a buyer and you're looking around at that, you know you're basically it's a lot of it's the same thing, right, and so you know, and I mean there are a lot of other things to discuss. You know strategically about product innovation and ways that you can mitigate that. But the you know one of the things and you were talking about this a little bit you know earlier today, gary. But I think that there, when we think about the sales process.

Eric:

I think that many times we try to ask too much of a sales team. I don't mean that in a demeaning way. What I mean is that they're not paid to have a skill set in deep explanation of the product functionality. That's going to be a sales engineer or someone more technical. It's not the sales person's job to be a complete product expert. Now they need to be able to tell the story and do discovery and align the functionality of the product with internal use cases. That is what they're good at and that's what they're paid to do. We have this concept on the product marketing team, where our goal which is fairly lofty, but our goal is to provide so much education for the buyer before they get to the sales call that the buyer already understands all the functionality, and so that the sales team can spend all of their time focusing on what they're good at, which is figuring out which internal initiative our product can align with to ensure that we get budget and buy-in throughout the buying process. It's almost like we've taken the functionality piece off the table and have pre-validated that for the potential buyer.

Eric:

One of the ways that we've been doing that and we just did it in a recent launch series. So this is still fairly new muscle for us but is doing very detailed interactive demos of product features we're talking. It's not like a one-minute sizzle reel. Some of these will take, at a going at a pretty quick pace, five or 10 minutes to actually get through the product demo for one feature. Then we've also even tried in certain cases to where it's not always with a technical product in an individual feature. You can't always tie it to the downstream use case, but we've actually in some cases in the demos, gone beyond the technical piece and then actually shown what the manifestation of using the technical feature is in the downstream tool. So, for example, a recent one we did was you have this problem with data missing.

Eric:

What's the impact for a marketer? Well, they're going to send an email that includes that information in a dynamic field and someone's going to get an empty email. That's horrible. Well, we're not selling to the marketer, our product isn't for the marketer. But we can help the data team help the marketer mitigate that. So we're trying to essentially give when we think about the buyer needing to. You said it's even more difficult for the buyer to buy. I think the ironic thing is that? What makes their job difficult is actually a sale they have to sell internally.

Eric:

So, we're trying to, even in the product demos, give them the language and examples that they need to make their internal sell way easier, because when they have to sell their internal stakeholders. So the initial feedback that we've gotten is that it's been really really helpful really across the org for sales and partnerships and customer success. That's a whole, nother thing. You talk about expansion of accounts and NDR and feature adoption. It's really the same thing. It's not like that's a wildly different process. You just have more brand familiarity and loyalty to help grease the skids.

Gary:

This is and you hit a couple of things I've pointed out, eric, as you know this morning is that one of the reasons I think this was so successful is that you, in many ways, have the luxury of having been a customer of the tool and therefore have incredible empathy and knowledge about the role, the challenges that the buyer is trying to solve and how it's deployed in the business impacts associated with that versus, as you pointed out, hey, this is a really cool feature. Watch all this stuff you can do with it. Now you figure out how to apply it to your business. That, in our experience, is where we find a lot of companies is that they want to talk about the thing. Sometimes they relate it to a problem, but a lot of times it's like look at you, now you can do X, y and Z, but they never make that connection to and then what is the downstream impact to the business?

Gary:

Partly, and pathetically, is because that could be a lot of different things For those particular use cases or these situations. Did you have? A common thread is that the product was being developed, that you were hearing back from the market, that you needed to solve for, and that was what made that selection of that particular use case easy, or was it one that it was the most malleable that people could see? Oh, I don't have that specific case, but I can see how it could apply here, here and here. How did you actually determine the use case that you were going to point out?

Eric:

Yeah, that's a really good question. Well, I'm going to give you a slightly. I will get to the answer, but in a little bit of a roundabout way, and then unfortunately, I have to hop for my next meeting. But I'll tell you, this is something that's maybe really unconventional, but when it comes to product marketing, I'm very, very hesitant to hire people with a marketing background. I think it's certainly different with things like demand generation, andy, where there's a really specific skill set. That's really helpful.

Eric:

But we've worked really hard to construct a team of product marketers who, I mean, I know this sounds crazy, but they really don't have any marketing background, but they have a huge amount of context for the problem. For example, we have a product marketer on our team who was a data scientist for 10 years at a publicly traded company. Well, we can talk about how we convinced him to join a product marketing team, but why would we have someone like that On a product marketing team? Well, when we think about use cases, he has seen all of the problems with this on a firsthand level. He gets the call from marketing when there's a complaint about data missing or some problem. He's tried to build machine learning models with really bad data. He's gotten the JIRA tickets from the executive team because reporting is broken. So this is going to sound really stupidly simple but in some ways, if you can get someone with that level of context, sometimes you just sit down and ask them.

Eric:

As you think back, what are the really painful things when marketing has reached out and said something is broken? Well, there's your use cases. We also brought on actually into the team someone from our customer success team, a customer success manager into product marketing, not a marketer by trade, but have managed and worked to renew multiple accounts. The other thing I would say that's really been eyeopening to me, which I'm like wow, that was a way better decision than we even thought, was that when you talk about the internal stakeholders, that gets very real in a renewal conversation and they're much more a part of it in a renewal conversation as opposed to the initial sale. They're involved there.

Eric:

But when you have been using the product for a year and people start asking questions about ROI and this is our context is that we sit upstream of a lot of those use cases they have to go to those internal stakeholders to ask about is there ROI at the end of the assembly line here Again, bringing those people in. It sounds simple but we just have conversations with, we brought people on the team who have an immense amount of context for the problem and we talk about it and we learn from their experience and then that helps us give the product demos an immense amount of context and tie those end to end, because we're just talking to people who have felt the actual pain.

Gary:

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I know you said you got a hop, so if you got to do that, then do so.

Eric:

Yes, I'd love to come back. Sorry, I have to you. Will you all will? They don't have a choice.

Gary:

Yeah, we'll bring you back. So we're going to continue to riff on that, because there's a lot of great stuff in there that we can expand upon. But thank you for jumping in and carving a little time out of your day and sharing that with us. It's obviously near and dear to us. So thank you, dude, thanks for having me.

Eric:

I'll be back on again soon. All right, see you, eric.

Gary:

All right. Well, so I love this. And so the hiring a non-marketer as a product marketer wow, and the point of that was context for the problem, and I think that is so powerful. As we think about what it is we need to do. It's so easy for us as an organization to get wrapped up in the mechanics of what we think we need to do and that we're doing the right things. We're producing the assets, we're doing the battle cards, we're talking about the features, but in a lot of ways, we're going through the motions because we are not starting first with what is it we're trying to solve? What is it about the existing scenario that is deficient in solving that? And here let us now show you what you can accomplish with this tool and the outcome that it can drive, and just starting there.

Gary:

And so now I will also admit that, if you listen to how Eric has solved for that, they have a product marketing team, not a product marketer, and that is a luxury that a very high growth organization has, especially with a very technical product. They have invested heavily, to their credit. They have invested very heavily, and I think the other side is that they're also taking that expertise and using it as a strategic weapon against the others that don't have that Now. So let's bring it back down to the lower middle market, where we're lucky to have a product marketer, let alone multiple product marketers. So how do we prioritize moving forward with that? How do you take somebody who has been very mechanically driven to do the things that product marketing is supposed to do, and do that in a very lean environment, and shift it to when do we start, andy, do you think?

Andy:

Well, I think the proxy for that, of course, is the voice of the customer. So really, what Eric did is he took large swaths of that in the form of people. So he took somebody who's a customer of the problem in a different place and hired them and put them in the situation where they could really dissect all of that for that individual and then also use that as a sounding board and a filter for when they hear problems, say, from customer success, which they also hired somebody from. So what you can do in a lean environment is, you know, ideally have enough sort of call it empathy and chops for the for hearing those things and being able to tune in to what those customers are telling you, because they will tell you the same sorts of things If you talk to enough of them.

Andy:

Some will tell you the wrong things, or they you know they, just they just don't know maybe how to say it. But if you, if you can tune in properly and distill those things, then your voice, the customer, in the form of what we often do, which is interviews or listening to sales calls or listening to customer success calls, they'll tell you the same things. It's just you have more to To sort of call through oftentimes. So so having good tools to help with that is a really big thing, but that's. That's essentially the proxy, I think, for the lower, lower middle market. You aren't going to get these, these big chunks of that in the form of people who have been there and done that and can also filter those things and can also detect those things through voice of the customer, loops and feedback loops. Um, so that's what I would say is it's you got to be scrappy. He's a cliche, but there are ways to get to the same sort of information.

Gary:

Yeah, I think you know I agree the scrappiness thing so well in the. The benefit that a smaller organization has is that the degrees of separation between those that are on the front line having the conversations and and those that are, you know, pulling those insights together to actually take action on them is one degree. I mean, we're not talking about layers here, and I think the biggest issue is that it just tends to be siloed because there isn't Some thoughtfulness on how we pull that together. Literally, having a conversation yesterday with the sales team and the, the team is now, because of some mergers moving from selling one product, which is very common in um, you know, the software world, to now needing to sell three, and they're all in the same space but they solve a little bit different problem, different buyers, different process, and so they're feeling a little naked, honestly, in terms of what they know and the level of depth of knowledge.

Gary:

And it's going to take time because, unlike a company, that that created these products and has been thinking about it, it happens suddenly right that suddenly your multi-product company and the, the, the simple request from one of the sales team or sales team member was Look, I don't need all of this material and all this training. I just want to get together once a week and talk about a certain feature or competitor or whatever it is, so that we can begin to build this body of knowledge. And so it can be something as simple as that rhythm where when we are putting some structure to extracting insights about what's going on and problem into the organization. And I think even for those organizations that have a product marketer who is out aggressively knows the the problem, well, it needs to be in the DNA of the company right fall in love with the problem. Eric said it context for the problem.

Andy:

Yeah, what I'd love to um get back together with Eric on a little bit and you know we could talk through here some is how you would go about sort of Coming up with a narrower set. So the when he started talking about I was like, oh you, you obviously have some horsepower. You can create many of these sorts of scenarios, many use cases Out in the world that that you, you cater to. So you, you have maybe a library of however many of these vignettes that speak to a particular product feature that you can then cobble together into and you know a, a story which which ties to a use case, and so somebody watches four videos and they're like, yeah, these all Tie to my problem and I can kind of put that together plus their technical Right, the buyer's technical. So that's that kind of adds its own dimension.

Andy:

But would love to um discuss a little bit more about how to um Right size that for the lower middle market to say, like, how do you go about prioritizing what you hear from customers versus what you have from a product For the scenario what we talk about, which is you, you want to be the coca-cola of your industry.

Andy:

You want to be really Very good at one thing For a particular type of customer, and and you just mentioned Having multiple products, so that just mushrooms that problem even more right, like you have so many other possibilities and possibilities of combinations, because those products do indeed Sometimes work together to solve a bigger problem as well. So how do you get to? This is this is the box that I'm gonna, you know, go after. I'm gonna attack this, I'm gonna explain this, I'm gonna create a couple videos, because we don't have, you know, unlimited production capacity on those things as well. So that's, that's kind of the thing I think is, from where eric sat to you know where our audience typically is. You, you've got to. You got to be much more, uh, you know diligence.

Andy:

Yeah, tight on time, tight on budget, yeah, um, you just don't have unlimited resources.

Gary:

Yeah, I agree, but so a couple of things that pop out. There Is, the hardest thing to do is get started right. The build. The first time build of anything is Is is you exponentially more effort than refining and iterating on what's already been built, and so the first step forward to your point is Um, well, what is the use case of the situation? I'm so One aspect here is you know, pick the one that you hear the most. That seems to be the sticking point or what have you, and sometimes, even if it's relatively simple and doesn't feel like it's very impactful, the sheer process of going through it and Creating something that is consumable, that speaks to that Is going to be helpful, because now you at least have built. If you're smart about it, you've documented it. Now you've at least gone through the process, and now the next time we go through it, we're going to go through it much faster, and we can we can continue to refine it. So it's almost two parts. One is the process of building it, which they did. This is the first time they've done this, and so there was a lot of work in this. We can get into some of the specifics there.

Gary:

They they happen to use a tool that is, uh, one of the um, the demo tools. Right, that is a on-demand demo um, but you know, certainly a poor man's version of that is. This is a video. What have you? Not a sizzle reel, but a video that goes through that specific use case and I think there's there's, sometimes there's more value in that than there isn't actually a click through demo um, but it all went back to what struck me was it went back to your provider. You're putting it in context of the problem, not just showing the features and the buttons and the outcomes, and what have you? Now?

Gary:

The other piece that's really powerful, that they are actually just now starting to see, is that that work Is compounding across the revenue funnel. It was built as a product marketing tool, to inform, to enable the buyer to buy the pre-sales Conversation for a technical buyer, so that they could communicate very clearly what you're going to get and how you're going to benefit from that, so that they would immediately recognize. I'm cutting through all the noise and clutter. I'm like that's what I'm after Now. I'm willing to go talk to a salesperson. Well, guess what?

Gary:

We don't necessarily know when the salesperson comes in or, excuse me, when they come into the talk to the salesperson, that everybody on that demo has actually seen that video, so now they can use it as a Pre-call education piece. That is setting the stage. So everybody's on the same page. They can now have more context in the sales conversation about what that, what, what they're looking for in their specific use case. They can now take that same asset and arm the champion, who now has to go back to the stakeholders with that, with that problem, and they, with the benefit of the sales conversation, actually provide whatever Specific spin is on that as well.

Gary:

And eric mentioned Upsell and cross sell. We now have an existing installed base that they may not even recognize, that we can now do this, and so now we have an asset that can very efficiently go out into the world. So I think that that is related here, which is especially in the lower middle market, spending the time to when you understand the context of the problem, to do something that is impactful and powerful and think about it from end to end before you go just doing things.

Andy:

It's the moment of value. Yeah, it really just hit me and dawn on me when I was thinking like, well, keeping it simple is a good idea, because one thing Eric mentioned is it's kind of a competitive advantage just to have it out there, just to be doing this, because a lot of others aren't necessarily doing that. So in the lower middle market for a product that arguably isn't a commodity and you have to do some education, you're automatically outrunning a lot of the slowest people by doing that. And if the story you tell covers a decent amount of ground, covers a lot of your ideal customer type of portfolio and explains again, not a sizzle reel, but explains how people get to a moment of value and shows that physically, shows how people do these things to get to a moment of value, you're probably outrunning a lot of competition by doing that.

Gary:

Yeah, absolutely Well, and that's the other thing that Eric didn't get into in the details of it. That I really appreciated was that the breadth of what this new feature launch, if you will was able to do was such that it was very hard to describe all of it. So they broke it down into vignettes, into pieces that allowed them to take a variety of use cases, even though it's all tied back to one feature, and so now you have the ability to cover more than one use case for the same feature, because they broke it down into those pieces, making it therefore very consumable. And so the other thing that was a powerful outcome of that that they heard early on was that, without even intending for this to be, one of the outcomes of this effort is how it supported their partnership steam, because now their partners are seeing this and saying this is partner enablement, and now they don't have to actually they don't, they literally just have to send the the video when they see a situation. Now they, as partners, can understand oh yeah, I have companies who are experiencing this pain. I hear them in it. Now I know I can send them this and can be at least connect, create that initial connective tissue that helps connect the problem to this being one of those solutions. So just goes back to the incredible compounding effort. And this is just the beginning of how they're going to do this.

Gary:

And it's in a space where, most of the time, because it's so technical, we, we, want, we, we and this is true in a non technical product We've seen this or less technical, I should say is that we want to generally, generally describe what it is we do so that we can interest you, but we don't want to so specifically describe it such that we exclude you. We want the luxury of bringing you into a sales conversation so that I get to choose how to position the product, so that I can figure out what makes sense, and I think for a long time that worked. But in a market where you have hundreds of options, the more specific you can be about whom you serve and how you serve them, the the better the probability that you're actually going to get that conversation.

Andy:

Yeah, I think that the trick there is right, sizing that right, because once you know the product, once the video is out there, it's kind of like the genies out of the bottle and you know there is a real scenario where it's like, well, that doesn't apply to some of those that we do want to attract. So we need to have at least our main, you know, our main constituency covered, even if that's more than one, and that's OK too, right, because then you're, you know, hopefully you do a pretty good job of describing the scenario up front so that somebody gets to the right, right product video. I call it product video, but that's how I'm thinking about it, but you know it's deeper than that, but they can get to the right one visa a very short, you know, sort of description.

Gary:

Yeah, well, and we'll put. Excuse me, we will put some of the links in the in the show notes that are these specific pages and how they put them together. And if you're not, if you're not into the, the, the geeky data stuff like we are, don't worry about it. You don't need to do that. Look at more at the page and how they put it together. I think you'll find it insightful. But so if we break it down for those that are in the lower middle market and you're sitting there as head of marketing or sales leader, product market or what have you, and thinking about how you can apply this, it is such a powerful component where oftentimes it is, as in the case of Eric's team they went to effectively the customer. Now they had the luxury of having a former customer in house on the product marketing team but, knowing Eric and that team, they did their, their share of canvassing sales conversations and their own customer success team and customer conversations to really hone that. But it is, it was in the nuance that they found the magic, and so that is the first place to start.

Gary:

Pick a problem, pick the thing, pick that one thing that your, that your product uniquely solves, that you believe your product uniquely solves and fall in love with the problem. Find the context, find the downstream effects. What are you what? What issues does that cause? Sometimes, frankly, even the emotional side of it, what? What's strained, is this cause in your life in terms of not being able to communicate to your stakeholders or, you know, provide what your constituents and other departments may be seeking, whatever that may be.

Gary:

And then think about the journey of the buyer when they are exploring a solution and they're getting to that point where they really just want to understand, with some level of depth, that thing. Then what is the pre call, post demo request, pre call experience, the call experience, the post call experience where they are taking this now back to their stakeholders. So try to build a business case or excitement around it all the way through the process, even through the customer success side. Now I have a customer and now I'm going to put this idea in front of them with that one asset. Those are all the places that you can touch. And then go, go, think about how the medium that we use to deploy that so that it can be used in all those places, and put that to work. Think more about the, the impact of that project or that asset through that entire sequence and get it right, launch. You know, thinking about that first version of to launch it, to get it out into the world, but how, how much compound benefit that provides Going to that level of?

Andy:

depth. Just oppose the cost of doing that versus something that's more flash in the pan tactical one time, and you know, I think that's a that's a good way of looking at that value equation.

Gary:

Do not confuse motion for progress. We got one of these clothes on this one. All right, well, this was a good one. We're excited. We're looking forward to having Eric back more frequently. He's a good human and sharp and just instant, doing some great things there. So and and he he believes in buyer led growth. He's living it, so that's great to see. All right, well, for this week it's been a good one. We're into February, how about that? So make it a good one. Enjoy the weekend and until next week. Bye, go be a pro.

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Product Marketing and Hiring for Context
Importance of Building and Documenting Use Cases
Benefits of New Feature Launch